Episode 9 - Land Division

In this episode we talk with Ian Hirokawa, Acting Administrator of the Land Division, about the critical but often overlooked role in managing Hawaiʻi’s unencumbered lands. Land Division was most recently in the news as the presenter of the Army Final Environmental Impact Statements to renew their land leases with the Board of Land and Natural Resources. Ian shares insight into the role the Division plays in processing such land use requests.

He also delves into major projects like the East Kapolei transit-oriented development and discusses how the Land Division helps generate revenue to support conservation efforts. Tune in for an inside look at the challenges and rewards of balancing public trust, law, and land use in Hawaiʻi.

Transcript

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Dan Dennison: Aloha and welcome to Hawaii's Conservation Kuleana, brought to you by the Hawaiʻi Department of Land and Natural Resources. I'm Dan Dennison. 

Patti Jette:  And I'm Patti Jette. We're here to explore conservation issues from land to sea with expert insights and stories from the field. 

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Patti: Today in studio, we have land division Acting Administrator Ian Hirokawa, thanks for joining us.  

Ian Hirokawa: Thank you very much. Glad to be here. Thank you. 

Dan: Ian, tell us about your background, your Ohana and your early life. 

Ian: Born and raised on Oʻahu, pretty much lived here my whole life, except for when I went to grad school. So went to high school, then went to UH undergrad, got a degree in history. So, you know, coming out of undergrad, I didn't quite know what I wanted to do. So next choice was where you go to grad school? So ended up going to law school at the University of Iowa - before anyone asks I'll just say, because they gave me a really good, it's a good school, and they gave me a really good financial aid deal. So that's why I went. Everybody asks me why I went there, so that's the answer. When I was there, I was like, well, I don't really want to be an attorney, so I had to figure figure out what I wanted to do, and, you know, kind of did different things for a little bit, and then ended up at DLNR. When I first came here, I started at the as a project development specialist in Land Division, but with the Legacy Land Conservation Program, and has kind of have kind of stayed ever since.  

Patti: Tell us a little bit about how your your background, your early days growing up here has influenced your sense of kuleana, for public service and for working with Land Division.  

Ian: I think, you know, in some ways, I felt lucky. I think as a lot of people my age are, you know, we're not young, but having grown up in the 70s and 80s and coming of age in that time period it, I think many of us look back on it fondly, but you also, and you and you kind of look at things today and you realize, well, there's been a lot of change, both good and some of it not so good. So I think it's important, especially when it comes to the environment, you know, what we know now versus what we thought back then, you know, I think it's a plays a much critical role in today's life than it did back then. Not to say we nobody cared, it just, I think we're have a heightened or even higher awareness of these issues. So, you know, I think it's critical that, you know, we all want to try to make sure that things are better, or at least try to make them better for the future. And that's why, I think, you know, the department's mission is very critical for the future of the state and the people. 

Dan: So when we think of the land division, you all tend to fly a bit under the radar in terms of what the public knows about you. We hear about forestry, we hear about state parks, we hear about aquatic resources, we hear about DOCARE, but land division has vast responsibilities, and I think maybe the way to help people understand is to start and explain what unencumbered land means, and then from there, talk about all the assets that are under management of the land division.  

Ian: Sure. So unencumbered lands is think of all the lands you know, owned by the state, and the land division is responsible for assisting the land board to manage lands that are not otherwise used for other purposes. So, you know, lands used for things like roads, schools, airports, harbors, hospitals, other government facilities. You know, we have no role in that. That being said, there's a lot of what we'll call maybe lands that are left over that, you know, are, you know, that parks or forest reserves,  those aren't included, but there's a lot of lands that are maybe what we would call left over, and that's what we manage. So it's a very diverse portfolio. I guess you could say, you know, you could have certain lands in the urban core, some agricultural lands, lands that aren't really usable for anything, like cliff sides or the not necessarily in - when I say usable in an economic sense, right? I mean, you can't necessarily repurpose them or develop them. The shoreline, you know, that's another, the submerged lands from the shoreline to three miles out. And that's a lot of you know, that's basically what we have to manage. So it's a very diverse type of land portfolio, so a lot of it is managing. When we say manage, it means that sort of processing requests for use of those lands. So in cases where it's appropriate, let's say we have a commercial industrial parcel in the urban core, we would seek to lease that out, you know, and gain revenue from it. So include things for like, for the shoreline. For example, there's a sea wall that's seaward of the shoreline, you know, they need to come it's encroaching on state land, so they need to seek a disposition from us, an easement. So that's the kind of dispositions we handle. And and also, I should have also included state owned waters. So, you know, waters that are located on state owned land. So water licenses, that's another resource we manage. But in the end of the day, when we process these dispositions, we have to make sure that one they're compatible with, you know, the public trust, right that these, these dispositions are consistent with the public trust, and also what we do is the income that are from the leases, and these dispositions support the rest, you know, our not only our operations, but other department operations. So OCCL, some forestry positions, positions in CWRM. Sorry, I should have said Commission on Water Resource Management, Office of Conservation and Coastal Lands … 

Dan: and the communications office. 

Ian: Oh, that's right, yeah, Chairperson. So, you know we do. So we support additional programs, not just land division, also other and also, I say I think the dam safety program in engineering is also funded by us. So the land, the land fund revenues. So, you know, really what it is, it's a means to support other department programs that are critical, you know, to the department's mission. You know, we do have some maybe larger scale development projects in the in the planning stages. And because people always say, well, you're DLNR, why are you developing? But I think they answer that, that's the answer, why? You know, because we need to do what we can to develop what I'll call stable, long term revenue streams, income streams for the department in the long term, because DLNR gets something like maybe less than 2% of the state's entire operating budget, you know. And and when you think about general fund revenues an even smaller share, because, you know, a lot of it, our revenues are sort of self generated. So even though we have maybe, I think we'll be 1.5 or 1.7% when you think about general fund revenues that are sort of the, you know, like the GE tax and whatnot, we get even less of a share. So it's critical that DLNR do what it can to be self-sufficient. So certain projects we have in development are the Pulehunui. This is in central Maui, the light industrial business park. And we have a transit-oriented development project out in East Kapolei, which is it would be a mix of mixed use, including rental housing, because that's a critical need as well. So mixed use, commercial, retail, office, rental housing and light industrial so that's the two sort of major projects we have working on right now.  

Dan: And just a follow up, I think people really aren't aware. And I think of Sand Island, where I worked for a number of years. Land Division manages a lot of the land in that industrial complex. But overall, any idea how much revenue you generate per year that goes into that land development special fund to serve the purposes of DLNR that aren't covered in the general fund? 

Ian: I know this is an old number, but I'm pretty sure it's at least 20 million. If not, it's probably more now, but I'm looking, I'm thinking of this is a several probably years old number, that it's at least 20 million.  

Dan: So without that revenue, there's a lot of projects, a lot of initiatives that probably would not happen here, correct? 

Ian: Oh, definitely, definitely. 

Patti: Tell us some of the important and continuing issues that the division is facing right now.  

Ian: Just from a project standpoint, we are working on the upcoming military leases, the dispositions, so that's, you know, that's a big challenge. I think right now, we're in the in the process of reviewing a lot of the environmental studies. So, you know, everyone probably knows the EIS for Pohakuloa as of this recording, you know, the the EIS for the Army Oahu training lands will be heard tomorrow. So that that as of todayʻs recording. You know, we also have additional leases that are coming down the pipeline, the Pacific Missile, Missile Range Facility, and other facilities so that, you know, that's a big it's a project for us. It is a challenge because there's a lot of very, you know, I'll say, very different viewpoints on these right? So there's, you know, and but we have to just, what I feel is we just have to be true and consistent with the law. That'll get you to the result, you know, you just kind of follow the law and the public trust, and that'll lead you to the result. You know, ongoing would be like East Maui water. You know, I know the water authority from the county is trying to take an active role, but ultimately, the land board will have to decide, you know what to how to allocate the water out there. And you know something, regardless what the county, you know, what they have planned, or what they will have to be brought before the land board, and we'll probably be the ones bringing that to them, how to deal with the shoreline, you know, working with Office of Conservation and Coastal lands, shoreline encroachment, sea level rise, you know. So those are, I would say, the the big issues. There's a lot of smaller issues. Another one is homeless on unencumbered lands, dealing with that. You know, that's a constant challenge too, right? I mean, with sort of trying to keep up with that. So I would say those are kind of maybe the big ones. I mean, we have tons of little ones, but these are, like the big ones.  

Dan: All of those you mentioned are, tend to be highly politically charged, very contingent,  as you said, many different viewpoints. Is it uncomfortable for you and your staff to be kind of thrust into the the political arena on these issues? Or how do you, how do you manage that? 

Ian: For me, and what I try to have a good command of the facts, you know that's that's one, and an understanding of the law, and let your you know, let that guide your decision, because you're not going to get 100% agreement. No matter how well thought out conclusion you come to, right and you present that to the land board for action, no one's going to agree with it 100% so as long as you are secure and comfortable in what you've recommended that is, you know that follows that, I think that's the best you can do, and, and it's the most defensible. And you know, at the end of the day, we don't, you know, history will decide right on a lot of these things, if our if, if the decision was correct or not, or the ultimate, you know, outcome was correct. I shouldn't, I mean, not correct, but you know, you know, I'm trying to say is how the value of the outcome, but I think that's the best you can do and let that be your be your guide.  

Patti: And then one of the things I wanted to just sort of make a distinction with, here were some terms we're bandying about, which is, you are with the land division, but the land board is the Board of Land and Natural Resources, which is the decision making entity here, associated with DLNR, correct?  

Ian: Yeah, sorry if I Yeah, that's correct, yes.  

Patti: So tell me, Ian, like, what are some of the challenges? And on the flip side, invigorating aspects of what you do leading the division? 

Ian: I guess I would say it's never, I don't want to, it's never boring, and a lot of times it's it's not easy. And that's, I would say, both the challenge and the the benefit, because it's constantly keeping you, you know, thinking and trying to what kind of solutions can we come up with, you know? So I think, yeah, I think that's the answer for both questions.  

Dan: How many times have you served as the Acting Administrator? Now, is this the first, or several times? Right?  

Ian: No, this is, I think this is the first, but of any kind of, what I'll call substantive period. You know, before was like maybe a few days here, or something, no more than a week. But, yeah, this is a sub the first substantive time. Yes. 

Dan: So what does that role entail? And when you're not doing that, what are the roles do you or have you taken on?  

Ian: Well, okay, so I guess the role as an administrator. You just kind of make sure the division is running, you know, we, you know, like everybody, I think, not just in DLNR, but everywhere where, you know, we're short staffed, so trying to move things, you know, move work out, and get things done as you know, as best we can. You know, it is slow sometimes, and sometimes it has to be slow because you do have to put, you know, a lot of thought and consideration into these matters. When you have vacancies, it makes it harder, right? But, you know, I think our staff is really doing, you know, the best they can under the circumstances. And, you know, just doing, you know, putting in a lot of effort to kind of make sure that the ship keeps sailing, I guess, you know. So I give a lot of credit to our staff and on in terms of the specific projects. So before I was the, you know, Acting Administrator, I was the special my title was, is special projects coordinator. And I was doing a lot of the projects, like I said earlier, like the water dispositions, the water licenses, the two development projects, you know, we talked about, assisting on military leases, you know. So those are the main ones there. But at the end of the day, what I found, what my position is, and both as administrator and even as the Special Projects coordinated to a smaller degree, but it's still there, is that it's kind of anything, you know, whatever needs to be done, and whatever the hard stuff is, you kind of have to tackle it, you know, you don't. There's really nobody else. So you kind of got, that's what you got to do.

Patti: Having been born and raised here. Now you work for the land division, and it's a large as we saw, like sweeping division. Do you see it differently when you're driving around, like, than when you were, you know, a kid or younger person? 

Ian: Yes, (laughs) yeah, yeah, yeah, no, definitely. It's funny, like, how you realize how complex everything is, you know, versus even, I mean, even before I worked here as an adult, I wouldn't, you know, not, not even when, definitely from when I was a kid, but even as an adult, you know, before you were, you realize all the nuances and, you know, just driving down the street, that's why I always say that I can never vacation here anymore, because you always think about stuff, you know, I have to go somewhere else, because I don't think about, you know, other issues if I were to go to a hotel on Kauai, for example, on the beach, and you think about all these things, you never quite get any, you know? So, yeah, I see what you're saying, and I agree with your your that statement wholeheartedly. 

Dan: So we all know people form opinions both positive and negative about agencies like the DLNR. What do you think you and your staff in the land division are doing to engender a positive flavor into what you do day in and day out? 

Ian: I think you know, we just have to be try to be, what's the word I'm looking maybe like empathy, you know, for people's issues, even if you don't agree with their perspective. You know you have to at least try to understand it, whether you agree with it or not, why they're coming from their decision. And you know they might have good reasons for you may not, they may not be reasons we agree with, or would be consistent with the law even, but we have to at least understand that. So, you know, it doesn't become personal, right? You don't want to. It's always hard if you know you let it become personal. So my view is, you always try to be as objective as possible, right? You know they're they're advocating for their interests. And if we happen to be on the opposite side of things we advocate for what we think is needs to be done pursuant to the law. And ultimately, you know, a lot of the things, because we don't make, it's up to the land. We don't make those decisions, right? It's up to the land board, and the land board will make it and, yeah, we may whether we agree with it or not. That's just the decision. That's the role, right? We're not the decis- they are, and we just have to, you know, we just have to accept it. We may not agree we have to accept it. So in that mindset, just carry yourself in a professional manner. When we when we do, sort of make a recommendation to the land board or take a position, it's important to really provide a good, a thorough explanation, because, you know, there's a lot of nuances that people you know, maybe not be aware of, right? There's a lot of nuances that we factor in, and maybe they aware of. Maybe they're not, but I think we should put it out there so people at least understand why we you know, they may not agree, but at least they understand why we came to the conclusion we did and recommending what we did, you know, whatever we do to the land board. So I think that's important. And like I said, maybe they agree, maybe they don't, but at least it's out there. And you know, sometimes they don't even acknowledge it, but you know, I think that's what we need to do, at least, because in the future, you know, that goes into the record, right? And in the future, at least people will be aware of what was done if there was any question.  

Patti: So with your background, you know, you have that law background. You could really work anywhere. You'd have a lot of options. Why did you choose to stay with DLNR?  

Dan: You could work in Iowa (laughs)

Patti: Well, we don't need to answer that question.  

Ian: To answer that question. I mean, I didn't want to be an attorney, and that was so and I, you know, I think I just didn't know. And, you know, I kind of kind of rode with the flow, you know, in terms of going to trying different things. And I'll tell you this kind of story. It's kind of personal, but it how timing works sometimes, right? And I was at a point where, when this, you know, when this opportunity to work at DLNR, came forward, I was thinking. I was contemplating, okay, do I sell everything I own? Because I had friends that are, you know, live and work in LA, and they work in, you know, the quote, unquote industry. So I was thinking, Oh, do I want to take a chance and try and be move up there and try and be a writer? And, you know how timing works out sometimes, you know, the this, the opportunity to work here, kind of came around and roughly the same time. And I thought, well, you know, let's just, this sounds interesting, you know, I've never really gotten involved, you know, with this kind of environmental work, and I wanted to see what it was like. And I said, you know, I'll take it and give it at least couple years, you know, and see what happens in the rest is history, right? I've kind of stayed since.

Dan: and how many years now?  

Ian: 18, 18, yeah, so at DLNR, so, you know it, yeah, it, that's how it kind of worked out. But I think it's just, I am very lucky to work with a lot of good people, both within land division and within the department as a whole. I've been very lucky to have that, secondly, that, like I said, the work is, it's important and it's interesting, you know. And I think those are the two, you know. And the third thing, I guess, I would say, is, when it comes to a job, there's that classic, I guess, the Venn diagram, and it's like, what the three of like, something you enjoy, something you're good at, and something someone's willing to pay you for, right? And you got to find that where they all meet. And I guess, I mean, at least for me, so far, it's, it's been in that middle, you know. So I guess that's how I would, yeah, I guess that's the my reasons. I guess, you know. So I, I'll admit, I mean, it wasn't like I ever grew up dreaming of working here, you know, you I didn't know. You know, it's not like, you know, like some people, you know, they, they're multi generational DLNR employees right there. The parents work, right and they work. That wasn't me, but it was just something that kind of happened and it and it stuck. So.

Dan: So final question, I'll put you on the spot. Any chance we'll see Ian as the permanent administrator? 

Ian: Oh, I don't know. I'm just trying to get through my days with all the emails and questions and everything else. I mean, not that's, that's something for the future, but, yeah, we'll see. I mean, and really honestly, that's not my call, right? I mean, it's, it's so I don't want to make it sound like, you know, that's really not, not my call, but we'll see, you know, we'll see what happens.  

Dan: Great. Well, thank you, and it's been a pleasure to talk to you today. Thank you for your time, and mahalo to our listeners for joining us today. For now, I'm Dan Dennison.

Patti: And I'm Patti Jette.  

Dan: Our theme music is provided by Kawika Kahiapo. 

Patti: Thanks for tuning in to Hawaii conservation. Kuleana A hui hou. 

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