Episode 8 - Division of Forestry and Wildlife (DOFAW)

In this episode, we sit down with leaders from the Department of Land and Natural Resources’ Division of Forestry and Wildlife (DOFAW) to explore the immense responsibility of managing and protecting some of the most precious natural and cultural resources in the islands. From the highest mountain ridges to remote offshore seabird sanctuaries, DOFAW stewards roughly a quarter of Hawai‘i’s land mass — safeguarding native forests, endangered species, and vital watersheds that sustain life in the islands. DOFAW Administrator David Smith and Oʻahu Branch Manager Marigold Zoll take us behind the scenes into the day-to-day challenges and triumphs of their work.

Transcript

[Music] 

Dan Dennison: Aloha and welcome to Hawaii conservation. Kuleana, brought to you by Hawaii's Department of Land and Natural Resources. I'm Dan Dennison

Patti Jette: And I'm Patti Jette. We're here to explore conservation issues from land to sea, with expert insights and stories from the field,

[Music] 

Marigold Zoll: The connection to place and the impact that we're able to make at those places, that's really special. 

Dan: In this episode we're with the team who guides the path forward in protecting our forest, wildlife and watersheds, the Division of Forestry and Wildlife, also known as DOFAWW 

Patti: Aloha. Today we have DOFAW administrator, David Smith and Marigold Zoll from DOFAW’s Oahu branch. Thanks for joining us.  

Dan: Tell us about your background, your ‘ohana and your early life, Dave, let's start with you.

Dave Smith: Okay, I was born in Kailua on Oahu and raised in Lanikai. Grew up about four houses from the beach, and spent most of my time outdoors, either in the ocean or in the mountains. So hiking, backpacking, playing in the water, you know, surfing, sailing, outrigger canoes, fishing, diving. So really, we were just little outdoor kids. And you know, back in the day its pretty feral too, just running around little packs and nobody's hovering over us. It was we really excelled in the in the outdoors, and managed not to kill ourselves, and got pretty good at surviving out there.  

Dan: Just a follow up question, it sounds like you were very aquatic or marine focused. How did you get into forestry just from being out in the forest occasionally?  

Dave: Well, I did spend a lot of time in the mountains, and I spent a lot of time hiking and backpacking. I was in the Boy Scouts. I was an Eagle Scout, bronze bomb, over the arrow really into and we were basically just a backpacking club. And we did all kinds of extreme backpacking, and got lost many times and kind of survival backpacking, but anyway, spent a lot of time in the mountains as well. Started out my professional career interested in marine sciences, and worked for a little bit in that field, but then just gravitated more toward refuge and land management on the terrestrial side.   

Dan: Great, Marigold? 

Marigold: Well, I grew up on Kauaʻi, mostly on the east side, kind of in coastal areas like Anahola and Moloaʻa, kind of remote areas, spent a lot of time on the beaches looking for, like, glass balls and swimming and stuff like that. In Moloaʻa, there was a colony of albatross that were up on the bluff that was really cool. And, yeah, like David, like, just feral, kind of, you know, spending a lot of time in the stream, spear fishing for prawns and going up into Kokeʻe, hiking around in the mountains, looking for plums and stuff like that. Yeah. So it was, it was that paired with spending a lot of time summers on the East Coast, around Washington, DC and the Smithsonian museums, Museum of Natural History, the art museums. So kind of those two juxtaposed really fostered an appreciation of the natural world and science and art.

Dan: So you're both feral keiki, does that give you a insight and understanding to all the feral species that you deal with? [Laughing] 

Marigold: Yeah, we're in for it. 

Patti: So let's get into the division a little bit. Tell us what the division is really responsible for, what kind of assets do you manage and protect? 

Marigold: So we manage, really the places that make Hawaii, Hawaii. Our most precious natural spaces, native ecosystems. The Natural Area Reserve system is a really good example of that, where we're trying to protect representative examples of Hawaiian ecosystems across the state and so from those places, endangered species are you know, our bio diversity, the wildlife sanctuaries that protect our water birds and sea birds, and then the places that provide forest products, where we collect plants for our most special occasions, like holidays and celebrations, where we play and hunt and fish and hike things like that we manage. What is it? A quarter of the land mass and the state of Hawaii, so it's quite a large area of land that we're responsible for. 

Dan: Dave, can you talk about organizationally, how you're structured? You have operations on every Hawaiian island?  

Dave: Yeah,we have branches on each island. So we have an administrative branch here in Honolulu that helps to support the branches. And then there's branches on each major Island or island group. So Maui Nui has Maui, Molokai and lanai. And you know, the branches are fairly independent. They report direct. The branch managers report directly to me and not to their counterparts at either forestry, wildlife or natural areas. So there's a continuity in the administrative structure, but there's also an independence, because every island and island group has its own demographics and natural resources, and it varies up and down the chain. And so, you know, we're kind of set up to accommodate the fact that things are slightly different on different islands.

Dan: We should note that marigold is the Oahu Branch Chief for Branch Manager for DOFAW. We kind of jokingly talked about feral species, and so let's talk about some of the challenges. And what comes to mind is, you know, in our office, we get so many complaints and comments about feral cats, and you deal with feral ungulates and the impacts that they have on forest lands and all so expand a little bit on that, and what's happened over, say, the past five years to 10 years, to try to address some of these issues with feral animals or invasive species. 

Dave: Okay, well, we, you know, a lot of things we manage are, you know, endangered species and biodiversity, invasive species, forest health, watershed management, and the feral animals or introduced species really play into a lot of what we do. And some things get established over here and don't really create a lot of problem or in some ways beneficial. But a lot of the feral animals, whether they be weeds or animals, create a real problem. And so, for instance, in Hawaiʻi, we didn't have any natural predators. And so to have, you know, cats, rats, dogs, mongooses out on the landscape, really creates a lot of problems for native ecosystems, our biodiversity, and really plays havoc with a lot of our native species. And so, you know, that's kind of the invasive species piece which takes up a lot of our time. It's just and expense is just managing, for instance, over here, just to manage an area, you have to fence it, right off the bat. You have to fence it. It's really expensive, and then you have to have ongoing operations to do predator control or weed control, and so it's just a constant battle. You know, what we call a lot of the native ecosystems conservation dependent, because there's so much work that goes into being able to maintain them. 

Dan: And Marigold having been to many of these areas that Dave just spoke of, for your staff and your crews out in the field, this is really rough, tough work that they're doing. 

Marigold: Yeah, it really is. And so it takes a huge amount of personal interest and dedication and passion and just drive to keep doing this work, because a lot of it is really daunting, and especially with the Endangered Species work, if you look at the numbers, it's, it's really sad, you know, and it's, there's a lot of emotional distress that our staff carries because of the work that they do. But the on the flip side, it seems like there's an upwelling of public interest in wanting to help us care for these places, and so we're not in in it alone, and there's a lot of opportunity for folks to help us and to help shoulder the burden of this kuleana.  

Dan: The thing that really comes to mind is the plight of the native forest birds, not so much here on Oahu, but certainly on Kauai Maui and in the Big Island. So Dave, you know we're on the cusp of probably losing one or more species of these native, endemic forest birds to avian malaria. Are we doing enough for to try to stem the tide, so to speak, or what else can be done, if anything? 

Dave: Well, we're doing what we can. We're dealing with disease which is very difficult, and you know, it's a mosquito borne disease. As long as we have mosquitoes, we have the issue. And how do you control mosquitoes? So certainly, our people that are out there and the resources that we have are being applied well. But we've seen the trajectory for decades now. My entire career, the trajectory has been down for these birds, and unless we can get the disease situation under control. Their plight is not, I’m not optimistic. Some of the birds have turned the corner naturally. They've started to develop a natural resistance to avian malaria, but some of the species are going to run out of time before they develop that. And you know, if, if it keeps going the way it's going, they're going to go extinct. And you know, the only thing that we're not doing, maybe, is spending enough money, having enough resources. We're doing everything we can with what we've got, but in order to move forward and provide more protection, we're going to need considerably more resources to be able to provide that kind of management. 

Marigold: Yeah, and we know that when we have the resources to do the work, the species respond a lot of times, right? And so with the plant extinction prevention program, we were losing a species a year before we started getting the funding to support the work, and once that funding was in place, we haven't lost any species. And and the same is true for some forest birds on Oahu, the Army Natural Resource Program and DOFAW have been doing a lot of work on elepaio, our native fly catcher and and just this last year, the army reported that it saw an elepaio in Pahole Natural Area reserve for the first time in like 20 years. And so the numbers are expanding. They're going outside of the areas that are directly managed. And so we know that if we have the resources to do the work, then then the species will respond. 

Dan: A shining example that comes to mind is the albatross at Kaena Point, and you and I have talked about that extensively over the years. Just kind of trace the history of how that all developed and what it's like today. 

Marigold: Oh, gosh. So back in the day, you can see pictures of Kaena Point, and it's there's no vegetation, it's just a sand dune. People were driving all over it. And then Dave was the first natural area reserves manager on Oahu, and his first job was to start barricading off the area, to off roaders. And so with that first step, removing that impact, the vegetation started coming back. Seabirds started nesting. People started doing rat control, getting making sure cats and dogs weren't in the area, doing weed control, and now we have a predator proof fence, and the numbers of albatross keep increasing. The shear waters are like taking up every inch of available nesting habitat. The vegetation is like totally overgrowing the trails. You can barely like walk through some of the trails. I mean, it's really just a shining example of how when you apply the right management tools, the the ecosystem really responds 

Dan: Dave, you take a lot of pride in what's happened out there? 

Dave: Yeah, it's that was one of my first projects, and quite a challenging one. Hey, shut off the most popular off road vehicle area in the island. But, you know, we went out and did a lot of outreach, and I did have people that previously used the area that were really happy with the way that it recovered. And it's just a beautiful area now. There was no sea birds nesting out there when we took off, took over and started, you know, I see area put up barricades to keep out vehicles and and then, you know, slowly, birds started coming back, and then they were getting hit by predators. We started predator control, and it's just been an upward trajectory since then. So it's really been a successful program like Marigold says a lot of these species are really responsive to management. And if you go out there and remove some of those stressors from them, then, like getting run over by a truck or eaten by a mongoose, you know, other than that, they're doing pretty well, you know, so, and the sea birds are very responsive to management, and so that's been a real success story.

Marigold: One of the neat things that we didn't really anticipate was the response of the sandalwood out there. And before the rats and mice were removed, you would never see any seeds. And now you see tons of seeds, and the plants are expanding. And so you just don't know sometimes how things are going to respond when you do something, you know, like we put up the fence for the birds, but then the plants ended up benefiting, and probably the yellow faced bees will benefit too, and everything else.

Patti: Actually, that brings up what I was going to talk about next, which is threatened plants. So we just went, you know, we have a lot of threatened birds here. How about the plants that are threatened here? What are some of the biggest threats I know, rapid ohia death is a big issue here. And also, how do you protect threatened plants? We have trails that people want to take and they want to use, and they just see a plant and they say, oh, green thing. They don't necessarily know what might be a sensitive endemic plant. So how do you handle that type of thing with DOFAW? 

Dave: Just try to help people understand the importance and of biodiversity and how unique some of our species are, and try not to take it upon themselves to indiscriminately clear cut things and so that appreciation. And then a lot of our crews are really well trained, and so they'll go through and do trail maintenance, but they know try not to cut the native species and whatnot, other than for clearance and whatnot. So a lot, and it becomes almost gardening, you know, you're out there gardening constantly. The other thing about like, rare plants on trails, it's like, yeah, they're on the trai, you know, they are in the trails, but they're probably elsewhere too, you know. So it's not the end of the world. And it kind of brings up the fact that a lot of the work that we do has multiple stakeholders and and sometimes conflicting, you know, so recreation and rare plants, a trail going through native forest, public hunting, which involves, you know, introduced mammals, which can also have a negative impact on forest health. So trying to balance all these different kinds of things and do the right thing in the right place, and try to get people to understand the importance of having certain restrictions in other areas. It's kind of how it goes through the plants. Plants are really quite you know, we have an incredibly unique plant diversity here in Hawaii, a lot of things found nowhere else in the world, and and, and some people aren't as keyed into plants, and so they don't maybe appreciate that as much, but trying to get folks to at least accept and appreciate things that maybe aren't top of mind for them. 

Marigold: And so for on the more technical side of the like the plant extinction prevention program, they focus on plants that have less than 50 individuals left in the wild. And there's like 250 species of them, right? So there's really a lot of those. And they go out and they'll collect seeds from each individual. They track every individual, and they, you know, try to get genetic representation of everybody, and then put it into a seed lab where those seeds are stored, and and they test them for viability, so that we know how long they last in that storage under those conditions. And and then they grow them out, and they out plant them into protected places. So there's that really intense species specific kind of management. And then there's also more of the broad ecosystem management of fencing off larger areas, removing the major stressors like the feral mammals, the goats and pigs and things, removing the ecosystem, modifying weeds like strawberry guava, angioptera, stuff like that, so that We can have a safe place to out plant the rare plants back into, and try and keep those places from becoming converted into a non native forest, because it's really difficult and expensive to take like a strawberry guava forest and convert it to native a biodiverse native forest, right? So we want to try and hold on to those places that still are intact. 

Dan: And there's, maybe it's because it's a Division of Forestry and Wildlife, but there's a real nexus between the plant world and the animal world in terms of your management. Yeah? 

Dave: Yeah absolutely. It's a really interconnected system. So whether it be forest birds or sea birds, you know, there's, for instance, with sea birds, they're out there, going out in the ocean and getting fish and coming back and bringing nitrogen back. And there's this whole nutrient cycling thing, where when you don't have those things anymore, there's a whole piece of the ecosystem missing. So kind of like what Marigold was saying, you don't even know what you've lost sometimes, until you start to protect it. And then all all of a sudden, things start to bloom. And so you know, all right, our mission is to kind of create landscape scale protected areas and then let those ecosystem processes, you know, return.  

Dan: It should be noted that, of all the DLNR divisions, DOFAW is the largest and probably the most diverse in many respects. And Marigold mentioned, or you mentioned education and outreach, I must say that you folks really have a really active education outreach, very creative education outreach program, probably more so than the other divisions. Talk a little bit about that and what the goal behind all that outreach and education might be.

Marigold: Well, gosh, education outreach can span from media stuff all the way to K through 12 classroom stuff and everything in between. And so for me, I'm really trying to find ways to connect to people with places through our outreach and volunteer opportunities. And so in Waimanalo, we have this problem with coqui frogs, right? But the community has really rallied, and they want to help protect the place and be part of the solution. And so we're issuing permits to trained volunteers to go out on their own and and help us with that problem, right? And so I think that as we educate folks about what they can do, we train them, and then they can help be an extension of our work in, you know, on the landscape, I think is really an impactful way of getting boots on the ground to help care for these places. 

Dan: And you have tons of volunteer opportunities. How would the listeners find out about those? 

Marigold: Oh, they're listed on our website, yeah. And we're trying to develop more and more opportunities as we go along, and just enable folks to find what resonates with them, so that they can intersect with us and help in the way that they feel most compelled to do.  

Dan: And I believe the website is DLNR, dot, Hawaii Dot gov slash DOFAW. 

Dave: We've had great response on volunteer, various volunteer trips. And lately we've been doing some really large volunteer trips for trail maintenance here on Oahu, and it's been terrific response. I mean, I think we had 70 people the first time, 60 people the second time.  

Dan: Before we move on, probably the most recognizable, one of the most recognizable things is the Na Ala Hele trail and access system. Talk a little bit about that. How many miles? How many trails? If you know, but just in general, that's a that's a big part of what DOFAW does statewide. 

Marigold: Yeah, we have our statewide trail and access program. On Oahu we have about 100 miles of roads and trails that are in the program. And then there are many other trails and roads that are not designated in Na Ala Hele trails too. So there's quite a large inventory of of trails that people use. We're trying to manage the trails in a way that makes them safe for folks to use that have information about them so that they can judge their own ability levels and figure out where the best place for them might be to go and connect with nature, right? And so a lot of our management is water control on the trails and vegetation control. Yeah, there's a lot of people who like to hike, and so that's really a huge opportunity to connect with folks who have that interest, right? And to be able to convert that into helping us care for our trails, right? Yeah, 

Patti: Yeah, you're definitely one of our divisions that interfaces, I'd say, equally with local residents as well as our visitors, tourists who are who come here. So interesting, I'm sure that presents its own challenges. 

Dave: Yeah, and our trails are well used by local residents. So people say, Oh, the tourists on the trails. But it's like we do surveys, sometimes it's 80% local residents. So people really like to get out there and get into the woods and get out into our coastal areas and utilize our trails. We manage over 500 miles of roads and trails in the state, and it is like Marigold says, one of our, probably one of our most popular programs. 

Patti: So what do you find invigorating, slash challenging about leading the division?

Dave: Invigorating? Well, you know, just the resources that we get to manage. I mean, it's like a real honor to be able to be able to work with the things we work and, you know, if you're kind of a biology geek like we are, you know, you're getting to work with things that are some of the rarest things, the species in the world and whatnot. You're getting to go to just some of the most spectacular landscapes on earth, you know, and work in these really, really unique areas. We get to do, you know, fun stuff like driving around four wheel drive and flying in helicopters, and, you know, that's, it's great fun. And we get to go up into areas that most people never have an opportunity to get to. And so, you know, all that is super fun. The other piece is that we're working with super dedicated people. Like, I look into, you know, management, leadership stuff, and a lot of it's just like, how do you motivate your people? And here it's not a it's like, how do you hold them back? You know, they're just, they're raring to go, and they're super dedicated, and just will do whatever it takes to get out there and try to get the job done. So that's another really great piece of what we do is that just having people that are so enthusiastic and dedicated to the work, 

Dan: And I often joke, having been a long time former broadcaster and journalist, we're kind of instinctively looked down our noses at government workers. And I've only been here a little more than a decade and I think it was from DOFAW people originally, I came in and I would comment to friends and family. I said, boy, was I wrong, because those people are passionate, dedicated, don't get paid enough in most cases. And just it, I did a complete 180 on how I look at government workers because of DLNR and DOFAW. 

Marigold: Yeah and so one of the challenges is, you know, obviously the history of land in Hawaii and the separation of people from place and all that trauma that happened, you know, and acknowledging that is a real challenge, because when we go to public meetings, we often get, you know, yelled at, and there's all this baggage that people still have and are carrying that they project onto us, right? I think that's a real opportunity to try to use what we can to reconnect people with these places and to find ways for them to help care for the places that have been in their families for so long. It's really people just caring about what's happening and wanting to be part of it. And I think that's the real inspiring and motivating part of my job. 

Dan: In fact, you incorporate cultural aspects of the place we live in, the host culture, and a lot of your programs, 

Dan: We do, yeah, and a lot of. Our staff, myself included, went through halau ohia training program to to learn more about Hawaiian life, ways and perspective, and to incorporate that in the work that we do and and that's a growing kind of trend in our division. And just, you know, using traditional Hawaiian practices to inform the work that we do, and to you know when you oli before you go into a space you're it's a safety procedure, right? You're taking a moment to look around and take stock of the weather and the conditions and and to center yourself in what you are going to be doing, and making sure that you're safe, and everybody is, you know, on board with what's happening. And so there's a lot of really great opportunities to meld that traditional Hawaiian practice with the work. 

Dave: Yeah, for instance, this is the Year of the Community Forest. And community forestry, people getting involved in forest management, getting involved in traditional and customary practice, and that's part of our responsibility, is to provide those opportunities where it's compatible, and now with community urban and community forestry, but we really focus on the community. You get a lot of these. You know, agroforestry, type of opportunities, traditional customary practice. And it starts, you know, Makai, more of the wetland areas, loʻi, terra loʻi and whatnot. And then you move up into more diverse agricultural landscapes. And then you move into the the more the native type of landscape. So it's, you know, we really, we manage from the top of the mountains out actually to the coast and out into the ocean. We have offshore island sea bird sanctuaries we managed from one tip, you know, the eastern tip of the Hawaiʻi Island, all the way out to Kure atoll at the far, farthest Northwest Hawaiian Islands. So we have this huge diversity and array of areas that we manage. And, you know, just trying to help people be on the landscape to the extent that it's compatible and do the work that we do in in more protected areas is is really a challenge and also very rewarding. 

Patti: So one thing I've been curious about since we first started talking here, since both of you grew up here in Hawaii, how have things changed in terms of the landscape and stewardship? What have you seen since you were little kid times. 

Marigold: Well, I'd say that this idea of keeping people out of places in order to protect them has really shifted to recognizing that you need to incorporate people into those places and into the management I think that that's a really big change that's happened in my career. I mean, just the, obviously, the population boom in Hawaii is, is the biggest change on Kauai there was, like, one stoplight when I was a kid. You know. 

Dan: Now there's two (laughter) few more than that. 

Marigold: Yeah, I think in the conservation world, sense, that shift in acknowledging the human role in in the environment is a big change for me. 

Dave: Yeah, the sheer numbers of people is one thing, but also the whole social media thing has just blown everything up. And you know, when you're when we were kids, there's all kinds of secret little spots, right? Secret trails, secret beaches, you know, secret areas in the mountains. And now everything is available to anybody. Just type into your phone hiking trails near me, and you will get everything that exists. And so the ability for people to go places where they would have never even known to go before. And then now there's this kind of mentality of this, what I call the Instagram mentality. You want to go out, you see a picture. Oh, I want to go get my picture there. Well, you may not be really able to go there physically, you know, your capabilities may not allow you to safely go there and let yet, people don't seem to understand where they are capable of, you know, like, for instance, do you paddle out into, you know, 12 foot pipeline if you're not a really avid surfer, but people will go out into the mountains and do things in the mountains that, you know, they end up getting hurt, they end up getting flown out. They just don't seem to recognize where they can safely navigate. And it seems to be driven by social media. So that's a really challenging piece of what we do. 

Marigold: It is, but I do think that hearkening back to traditional Hawaiian customs of like asking for permission, and, you know, kind of these values, that if we can start to turn the corner and and raise them up, then maybe that will help to change people's behavior and interfacing with these places 

Dave: Kind of goes back to the education piece too. You know, trying to educate people about, we don't want to discourage people from going places, but we do want them to be able to navigate safely and and not cause harm. And what we find is like, in a lot of times people don't mean to cause harm, but they just don't know. And so the education piece is great, because when you tell people something, oh, don't do this, because there's a reason, they're like, oh, okay, you know, a lot of times you're just fine with that. They just don't know. So a lot of it's just ignorance, just based on the fact that they don't, they don't understand. And so the education piece is really important in terms of trying to get people to behave in ways that are pono for the natural environment, but also help preserve health and safety. 

Dan: It seems like social media and discernment are at opposite ends of the spectrum that people believe whatever they see in social media, and if it's on social media, it must be open and ready for everybody to visit, which is not the case in many cases, and that's when people get into trouble, as we've seen time and time again. You both could work about anywhere. Dave's spent most of his career. Here your mid career, I guess. Why? DLNR? Why DOFAW? What keeps you going? 

Marigold: The people that we work with and the places that we get to work with? Yeah, that's really I've worked in a lot of different organizations, but it's the connection to place and the impact that we're able to make at those places that's really special. 

Dave: Yeah, DLNR provides such a platform for doing conservation work. I mean, I really can't think of a better place to work if your interest is in conservation. That's our mission. And so if you want to get out and be able to work in a diverse array of landscapes and ecosystems and do really meaningful conservation work, I don't think there's a better place. There's lots of other organizations and agencies that are doing really good work, but this is a very good place if you want to do that sort of work.

Patti: All right, that wraps it up for this episode, mahalo to you both.

Dan: And Mahalo to our listeners for joining us today. I'm Dan Dennison. 

Patti: And I'm Patti Jette. 

Dan: Our theme music is provided by Kawika Kahiapo.  

Patti: Thanks for tuning in to Hawaii Conservation Kuleana. A hui hou hou.